Vish Hindocha:
Hello, and welcome to the All Angles Podcast.
Speaker 2:
The views expressed are those of the speaker and are subject to change at any time. These views are for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a recommendation to purchase any security or as an offer of securities or investment advice. No forecast can be guaranteed. Past performance is no guarantee of future results.
Vish Hindocha:
Today, I'm joined by my colleague, Pilar Gomez-Bravo, who is an Investment Officer and Leader at MFS and manages our Global Fixed Income and Credit Strategies. In this conversation, after we learn a little bit more about Pilar and her background, we dive deep into how she thinks about sustainability in the context of global fixed income markets and investing.
This is a really fascinating topic and a theme that lots of people in the industry are talking about now, and I'm sure we'll hear more about in the years to come.
Don't forget. You can subscribe to All Angles through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you choose to get your podcast from. And if you do have any questions that you'd like us to cover, please get in touch by emailing us at allangles@mfs.com.
Pilar, thank you, and welcome to the podcast.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Thank you, Vish. It's a pleasure being here.
Vish Hindocha:
Great. Welcome. Pilar, just before we dive deep into sustainability and fixed income, I'd love to learn a little bit more about you, or share more with our listeners about you. Give us a potted history. How did you get here?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Yes. Well, it wasn't the most direct way. I can't claim that my passion when I was young was to be a portfolio manager in fixed income, but nevertheless what did get me here was just adapting to different settings and different changes. I grew up between the US and Spain. I did a degree in law and another degree in economics to figure out which one of those two paths I wanted to follow. Ended up in management consulting. Realizing that was not my calling, finished doing an MBA in the US. And from there on, jumped into the world of investment banking, again, unsure whether I wanted to do capital markets or in fact, investment banking.
I did a little bit of both and then eventually settled in capital markets, where I fell in love with fixed income, actually. I always thought I was going to be in equities and an equities analyst or investor, but rotated around in fixed income. They managed to convince me to go down to that trading floor and fell in love with the enormous amount of opportunities to make money in the asset class. Ended up in credit research, really as a credit analyst, where I thought I had the best chance to talk to anybody and everybody at the firm, as well as with clients and therefore developed that connectivity. From there, went into the asset management side and joined MFS about 10 years ago.
I had the pleasure and the pain of spending most of my career at the time at Lehman Brothers, and then Lehman Brothers Management. Lots of lessons learned from that experience, going through the bankruptcy while still being an investor and obviously managing the team. Ended up here to really develop the global fixed income strategies, as well as the credit strategies and also grow the fixed income platform outside of North America, which are the things that I've been focused on over the last almost 10 years.
Vish Hindocha:
Amazing. I might take you back a touch. You said you fell in love with fixed income because of the opportunity and the ability to make money. Is there anything else that drew you into fixed income at that time? I always like to ask people about the road less travelled, and you've talked about law, management consulting, equity. You had lots of those roads less travelled. So I'm just curious, is there anything that you reflect on now that pulled you in, that keeps you so motivated to keep looking at this asset class?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
I think I fell in love with the complexity of it. I know it sounds odd that you'd be attracted by complexity, but it just felt that if you were able to create an investment process to take advantage of that complexity, maybe that would be an area where there would be less players involved, I guess. The complexity and also the variety. I think variety is the spice of life. I felt that there was a lot more variety in terms of the different asset classes, obviously the different currencies, the global nature of fixed income, that appealed to me, which is an area again, it's not typical that you would learn a lot about fixed income in general in university or indeed, through other daily events in your life. If you look at the newspapers, they're mostly focused on equity stories.
Vish Hindocha:
That's fair.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
But not really on fixed income. It was eye-opening for me, and it was the complexity and the diversity of the asset class that I fell in love with.
Vish Hindocha:
That's super interesting about how maybe you don't cover fixed income in the curriculum as much as we do equity. You said some of your formative years were spent at Lehman Brothers, which I'm sure was a bit of a roller coaster ride. Anything that you, again, reflect on and take out of that experience that helps you today as you reflect on team building and the culture, and what you are aspiring to achieve here and now?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Yes. That was a very different culture. But I think really looking back, and obviously hindsight is 2020, what was the most valuable learning experience was really sharing information was key. That's how trading desks really make money.
Being able to be at the hub of information sharing from clients, different types of clients, different types of investors, but also being able to access what the syndicate desks are saying, what the investment bankers are saying, what the equity team is saying, when I look back, it was really understanding the importance of being able to be connected as much as possible to as much information as possible as well. That really gave you the edge.
Vish Hindocha:
Got it. Pilar, so thinking about all of that now, what is your why today? Why do you like doing what you do? What gets you out bed in the morning? What drives you and motivates you now?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Well, I love to make a difference, and really I don't manage my own money. So it's really a service that we provide to our clients. I think the purpose really, having been in consulting and investment banking, I love doing what I do because I see the social purpose. I feel like every day that I come to work, I'm helping somebody retire with dignity, and somebody who's worked long hours be able to enjoy their savings. That keeps me going. It motivates me. I love the market. As I said, I'm passionate about fixed income. I think there's always opportunities.
For me, I'm relatively a proud Spaniard and therefore likely to do well at everything that I do, relatively competitive. The thing that keeps me so passionate and so excited is that the market provides us with challenges every day and we have to navigate those challenges for the benefit of our clients. It keeps you on your toes. It keeps you fresh. Again, you can't really rest on your laurels. You have to always be top of your form to be able to deliver for clients. That again, is exciting and it just keeps me going.
Vish Hindocha:
Absolutely. You mentioned a few things already. Not only that the market is throwing up many challenges, but what pulled you in was complexity and actually about a vocational element of what we actually do in creating a difference. I'm going to use those as a segue to talk about sustainability. Maybe if you could just start by talking, how do you think about sustainability or ESG? What would you describe as your approach to thinking about it in your investment philosophy or process?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Yeah. I think that sustainability, it's funny because the existing focused sustainability for fixed income often was part and parcel of what we do because we only really have downsides. So it was always part of the analysis and the investment thesis that you had to have a strong view on the sustainability of the company because otherwise you wouldn't get paid. At least certainly in the part of governance, you are not necessarily the key stakeholder as much as a shareholder is. That part, certainly the governance part was always pretty much present in fixed income as a whole.
I think where the evolution has been, has been obviously on the E and the S components of ESG, and really having a more thoughtful approach as to how those contribute to an investment thesis. And therefore, again, a portfolio construction approach. I do appreciate that with time, there's a lot more data and information. And I think that's really what's driven the difference nowadays is that information, as I mentioned earlier, with regards to the Lehman Brothers experience, information flows much more freely and therefore you have a lot of access to information. I think that our role as fixed income investors is really to distill the noise from the essence of what really you're looking for.
Materiality, investment horizons in fixed income matter a lot, because we have a choice as to where to lend. Therefore those complexities that I mentioned exist even more so when you try to think about sustainability in juxtaposition with obviously the financial considerations of an investment. But the reality is that in a way, the huge push from a regulatory perspective, as well as a social perspective, and understanding these drivers makes our life a little bit easier in terms of de-tangling these factors within our investment considerations.
Vish Hindocha:
Is there a talk about the evolution and new information coming in, something that when speaking with clients or even thinking about ESG and how it's happening, I often think before, maybe 20 years ago, things lived outside of traditional economic models. But now we have better data, better compute power to be able to start to internalize some of those things. I wonder if you agree with that. As you spoke about material elements of ESG or how we distill signal from noise, is there anything that you think has evolved in the last few years for you in terms of how you think maybe about the E and the S factors?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
I think a lot of our job is really to ask the right questions. What I think we have learned over the last couple of years is what the right questions are. I think that it has been great to see that evolution working with management teams or issuers, sovereign issuers, municipal issuers. In general, again, any asset class within fixed income is being able to understand, what are the right questions for that particular issuer at that particular point in time?
It has been a process. It's a journey, and I think we're getting better and better at asking those questions. The reason why it's also important is because you have a limited amount of time to engage with these issuers, and you want to make sure that every minute counts as much as possible. Frankly, the process of sustainability is a process of listening and being able to then take away what you've learned, and then have a minute to think and see holistically how that applies to your portfolio.
Vish Hindocha:
I love that. The process of sustainability is the process of listening. I don't think that's common wisdom. And I was going to ask you a question if, given your role is to again, ultimately create alpha, to have a differentiated view to the marketplace, if there are spaces in which you believe you think your philosophy or approach, be it to ESG or anything else, is differentiated or contradicts what we might think of as conventional market wisdom.
I do think that listening is important. Sometimes the ESG investors are extremely loud about what they would like to see, and probably doing more talking than listening. But is there anything else that you would point to that you think that you have an inherent investment belief, that is somewhat different or differently positioned to the rest of the marketplace as a whole?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Yeah. Well, it's hard. The markets are well-trodden to identify something that somebody else hasn't really thought about. But I think with experience, with years of doing this, I've come to the conclusion that connectivity is hugely important. And being able to bring knowledge from other areas to whatever the discussion is at hand is really important. Because frankly, I guess what I would say is that two plus two can't be five. And for two plus two to be five, you need to bring more than just the expert knowledge to the table.
A lot of the investment world focuses on specialization, going narrower and narrower in that field, and sustainability is the same. You end up talking very complex level of detailed analysis on whether you're looking at carbon emissions or you're looking at exactly how to measure scope three. Or again, the evolution of the board, et cetera. When sometimes actually just being able to take a step back and putting the pieces together, pattern recognition, assessing examples that you've lived through in other areas, other industries, and how they could apply to that specific company or that specific investment actually brings a lot of value.
For me, what I think is different when you think about sustainability as well, is being able to have that holistic approach. And the holistic approach comes from connectivity and being able to draw from other areas, and having that more generalist view. Rather than, I guess, what's common expectation is that, that very deep expertise is really going to drive the alpha and the sustainability approach. I would take the other side.
I think having that general perspective, having the connectivity, being able to draw from different areas of knowledge brings a lot to the table. And you can get two plus two equals five.
Vish Hindocha:
I like it a lot, the whole being more than the sum of its parts. And I think you're right, we're trained actually to be reductionists in our thinking. That if we understand the individual component parts, we can add that up. But to your point, I think there are plenty of examples and maybe we'll get into some, of where the whole can be more, or two plus two can be more than four. Maybe we will get into your portfolios and how you think about it.
One of the things that's interesting to me is Pilar, you run fairly broad, multi-asset fixed income portfolios. We know that ESG application is nuanced and is nuanced particularly by some of those sub-asset classes. So I'm curious, given your seat and given you like to take that holistic approach, this is a big question, are there global principles? Are there nuances by region or asset class that you regularly think about?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Well, yes, definitely. I think that when you have a global approach, you realize that you have to have some sort of level of minimum common denominator that really guides your philosophy. And then being able to have the flexibility to adapt to the different circumstances of the region or the asset class that you're looking at. That is actually the beauty of portfolio construction is to require a minimum level of threshold to be able to make those decisions that you have to make on a more agile fashion, but understand that you have to have the nuanced approach and the flexibility.
When you think about sustainability and fixed income and the variety of assets that we deal with, at the end of the day, as an active, long-term investor, we do our own homework. And doing our own homework means, just like we go and dig into the details of these issuers and adjust for the different variables that apply, you do the same thing with sustainability. We don't outsource that to a third party, like we wouldn't outsource an analysis of a balance sheet or a macro political element of a sovereign.
Therefore, a lot of what we do in fixed income is doing our own homework. And that means that you have to be flexible to adapt, to understanding the different considerations while you're still applying the same principles of ultimately being repaid. We're lenders, so you just want to make sure that you're creating that value. I like to talk about fixed income processes in a disciplined fashion, but a little bit like a kitchen you have, or a menu.
You will have some quick hits. These are your hors d'oeuvres. And again, when you talk to issuers about sustainability, well, some quick, easy things that you can see can get you to the right path. But then there are the stews that take quite a long time. Being able to assess in a portfolio, what are your hors d'oeuvres and what are your stews is really important because the two of them make the menu. That's how you enjoy your dining experiences, having a combination of those, of sweet and salt, and hors d'oeuvres and stews.
Sustainability is the same thing. Investment decisions in fixed income are similar. You will have some that are more short term in nature within that long-term active approach. And some that really require patience and time, and always engagement at every point in time, whether they're short-term decisions or long-term decisions in the portfolio.
Vish Hindocha:
I love that. That's the multidisciplinary thinking. But the hors d'oeuvres and stews, I've never thought about that analogy before. I'm going to have to come up with a menu-based analogy for you later on. You mentioned upfront, one of your roles and one of the responsibilities, I suppose, that you have is as a leader within the fixed income department and helping grow the team, build the team, nourish the team culture that is here. You talked about being a generalist and having a holistic view, but also having the bedrock of more specialists underneath.
Vish Hindocha:
Again, in that more leadership capacity, is there anything there that you can share in terms of how it works for the specialist teams? Again, within some of these asset classes, maybe where it's more of a stew or your longer-term patient approach, versus where there are shorter-term, quick fixes available, where there are better, well-trodden pathways for them to integrate sustainability into their work?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Yeah. I'm a strong believer of diversity in the teams. Having the different perspectives, as I said, can contribute to the two plus two equals five thesis. I think one of the things as we grow the fixed income platform, really where you do have these unique asset classes that require expertise within those asset classes is to be able to find any and every occasion for those teams to get together and to be able to share views.
We do have different forums in fixed income of portfolio managers and analysts that allow us to really derive the value of that cross-sharing, that cross-pollenization of thought. You will have muni analysts that can talk about health care and education, obviously, together with our credit analysts. And also the macro analysts that have to incorporate those themes in the sovereigns that they analyze. Sometimes you think that something is very specific to an asset class, but then you find out that again, that there are common elements across the different teams that can be shared.
As a leader, I think a lot of it is ensuring that there's that diversity of thought, there's that freedom of expression of your views and conviction levels on your pieces, but there's that true sense of the value that provides to other teams by sharing that knowledge in forums that allow you to express yourself freely. Really, I think that one of the key things that I look for when we build teams is adaptability to change.
I've had the benefit of being involved over the last 10 years in growing the platform. And one of the key things that we look at, aside from integrity and work ethic and the cultural fit, is really adaptability to change. Because the level of change that we're seeing, and we can see this through sustainability, is ever increasing. You need people that are resilient, that have grit and that can adapt to change, because the world is changing quite quickly.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. Absolutely. It's fascinating in these conversations, how a lot of the people who I think are successfully integrating this self are very adaptable and malleable to change. It's always interesting to me about their backgrounds and maybe what's helped them understand that change is something that we should embrace, and complexity is something to be embraced. Rather than maybe the stability that sometimes, I think, as humans we all crave.
In that, given how much is changing, given how dynamic many of these fields are, is there anything that you think all investors, asset owners, investment managers, wherever they might be in the value chain, what is the most important or critical thing that we should be focused on right now?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
I think that, again, you have to try not to miss the forest for the trees. And do you have to do that methodically, systematically. Again, you mentioned earlier some of these core principles. Investors can come in all shapes and forms, so when you're at MFS, we invest with certain philosophy and certain values. And those are the core that you always grab as a safety blanket, as you jump into the ever-changing world. But those are the core values that you're always going to come back, and it's values that are driven by generating responsible, alpha, sustainable performance for our clients.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
And then how you do that might evolve, rightly so because the markets are also changing. But really, that essence and the core values are there. Ultimately, try not to miss the forest for the trees. Keep that in essence, in life and in work. Understand what is important. Once you understand what is important, then you can ask the right questions. And therefore, you then can discern what is important for your investment thesis, for your portfolios, for your clients, rather than getting distracted by the barrage of information and data that we get subjected to every single day.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. Pilar, you mentioned a couple of things and we planted a flag earlier that I said we might come back to of taking a more holistic approach. You talked about the information flow and connectivity of ideas giving you a sort of analytical edge if you like, on how you might look at a particular situation.
Are there any examples that spring to mind for you over the last year or so, where you feel you've been able to draw from either the platform, or from your experience of working across multiple sectors or asset classes or regions that's helped you analyze the risk or opportunity slightly differently?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Yes, definitely. I think that obviously having the excellence of our equity investment team, as well as some of the quant frameworks that we're always developing, really help support a lot of their pieces in fixed income. I would say that also, I think that some of the challenges that we face are challenges that have to do with combining the E, the S, and the G actually. I think that holistic approach is also reliant on the fact that you're trying to take into account all these different letters in one thesis. And so sometimes you have a clash at any one point in time.
We work together quite closely with, especially on the credit side when talking to some of the companies where we do have access. I had recently an engagement meeting with the chairman of the board of one of the companies that we lend to, that have had recently some issues. That meeting was comprised by PMs on the fixed income side. It had PMs on the equity side. It had its dedicated analysts and obviously our stewardship team. It was very comprehensive, but we had an hour of the chairman of the board's time talking about culture and some of the changes that he's making.
I think there are very few places where you could claim that you would have that access, fixed income together with equities, without necessarily the chairman of the board knowing who's who in that discussion.
But in terms of combining the E, the S, and the G, I can give you an example over the last several years with an auto manufacturer that had significant governance issues. Ever since then, we've been engaging very closely with them around some of those issues.
But also recognizing that on the E side of things, we were making significant strides and we're going to be a leader in electrification of vehicles. And therefore had a lot to contribute to the world in terms of switching over to that, and to a very unique innovation in that aspect. A huge amount of investment. Again, it's, how do you combine those two? You might have a weakness in one area, you're trying to engage on that, but also recognize the potential of the other area. That's one example.
We had another example on the mining sector, again, where we've been engaging very significantly with a company that has had a checkered past, but where we do recognize their commitment to change. Again, talking about change is, when do you give credit to a management team that they really are keen to be a partner in developing solutions for climate change? That requires even more constant engagement, and we've had again, meetings with them on a number of occasions. Those are two recent examples where they're not necessarily easier sectors.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
We do own some energy companies in my portfolios. We own, again, utilities. We own companies that would tend to be excluded in mandates that would be exclusionary. And the reason why we do that is because we have strong beliefs that they're going to be winners in E, S and G. And that we want to be partnering along with them to give them guidance and help support them in that journey to create a better more sustainable world and not just a better, more sustainable portfolio.
That takes a lot of courage, frankly, because you are going against the grain on many occasions. And it's re-identifying in these sectors that are not so obvious, those companies where you do want to bet and partner with them, to take on the journey towards again, a better E, a better S, and a better G.
Vish Hindocha:
I'm glad you used that word, courage. I was thinking, as you were describing it, that again, what's always fascinating to me about the approach that you've described, which is one of integration and engagement, active ownership and engaging with these issuers in order to think about where they're going to be in future, requires a tremendous amount of courage of conviction, that there is change afoot. And that ultimately, you as a lender or an investor will be rewarded for that. That's got to be much harder than ... Well, I'll phrase this as a question. Is that much harder than just using a backward-looking screened approach? Or using you've mentioned ratings before, but marking down companies for controversy versus trying to price things for the future?
Ultimately, you as an active investor, get paid to help price future risk and return. But again, does that temptation ever come in to look at some of the controversies and look the other way? Or do you keep going back to the watering hole of that courage of conviction to keep looking at some of those names that yes, there may have been controversies in the past, but actually we can see that there's a direction of travel or there's potential upside if that business starts to move in the right direction on some of these factors?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Well, yes, definitely. See, I think that a lot of the times ESG has been "tainted" by being a risk. And of course, it is a risk. But there's also an opportunity, and I say this as a fixed income person where we usually don't have a lot of upside. But I do believe strongly, that's the courage of my conviction is that there are opportunities actually in ESG rather than just avoidance of risk. Of course, we have to avoid the risk, but there's also a huge amount of opportunities. It's like the industrial revolution in terms of the amount of lending that is going to be required to fund the investments, that are required in new technologies and an evolution towards a more sustainable path.
Even the conviction around having difficult conversations around board structures, governance, around social aspects and stakeholder interests. It's not easy sometimes. And sometimes actually, management or issuer teams, because sometimes the discussions are with sovereigns. Sometimes they're like, "Why are you asking me this?" We've had occasions where we have been saying, "Well, why?" Sometimes management, as you would expect a lot of the times, they will have their scheduled points that they want to tell you that somebody has drafted for them.
You drill into that, asking them questions as to how that sustainability element is relevant for their business. Because again, they're not separate, they're together. So when we ask a question about sustainability, it's not for the sake of just sustainability itself. It's for the sake of delivering better business outcomes. Sometimes they're like, "Well, why are you asking me about the business? I thought this was a call around sustainability." They don't necessarily understand that they two go hand in hand.
So yeah, it takes courage. It takes being able to, with patience, explain why it's important to combine sustainability with the business aspect. And therefore be able to drive better investment outcomes. But I think part of the challenge to be honest is that it is relatively for management teams, for treasuries around the world, for different departments in areas that need to issue, I think fixed income plays a huge role, even sometimes more than equities, because everybody needs financing through the lending channel. Very few companies want to issue equity, but they do want to issue bonds.
So we are much more frequent, we are much more frequently asked for money effectively. But I think a lot of the times, at the end of the day, really, it is new for them as well; how to handle investment questions, how to handle the wall of eager discussions. Because again, some investors are just ticking the box. Some are just excluding outright without even wanting to learn what the companies are doing or what the governments are doing. They are again, evolving as well with regards to what is material, what is important to determine those investment outcomes longer term.
Vish Hindocha:
That's great. Like you said, your questions have been evolving and you're asking better questions now, and so they need to come up with good answers. But it's a timely reminder, a really powerful reminder about that ESG is not just a risk. It's an opportunity, too. To hear it from a bond investor is always heartwarming, I think, for everybody.
Pilar, just a few questions to end. You've been very generous with your time. Making this more about you again. Outside of MFS, what do you devote your time to when you're not thinking about global fixed income markets?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
It's not a lot of time. The global fixed income is a big broad universe, but I actually have four kids and a dog. So frankly, I don't really have much time outside of those. If it's not fixed income markets or investment markets in general, then it really is occupied by my family and the four kids, the more recent addition of the dog as well. That does leave me with a little bit fewer time. I do like other things, the cooking, the reading, the music, the going out for walks and exercise. But frankly, a lot of it has to do with my children and my husband, obviously.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. You mentioned the dog's a recent edition. How recent is recent of the dog? Is that just because of the four children?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
It was a nightmare actually, because I finally caved in after my kids had been demanding a dog for a long time. Finally, finally caved in. Literally, it was like November, right before the pandemic. The dog started getting training and suddenly the training stopped because the person couldn't come anymore. So we have a wild, half-trained dog and that we basically never socialized. So it got used to having everybody in the family at home forever with the lockdowns.
I have a feeling that now the dog is two years old and he really hasn't had a normal upbringing with regards to the dedicated training and the socialization. But we love him. He's certainly full of energy. And as usual, the kids have decided to abandon all responsibilities for the dog, except cuddling him every once in a while. That's why I added that the time dedication is also encompassing for the dog.
Vish Hindocha:
Excellent. My girls, two girls, eight and five, they are also desperate for a dog. But until they can demonstrate six months worth of commitment that they will look after it, we're going nowhere near the dog. I'm actually a huge fan, but my wife is the holdout in our house for now. So we'll see when our time comes. I might come to you for tips on that.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
I was going to say, I think we have parallel trajectories there.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. Okay. You mentioned reading. I'm not sure you get much time to do it outside of four children, investment markets and now a feral dog at home, but what is the book, article or piece of literature that you have shared or recommended the most?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
I actually have a wide ranging interest in books. I read a lot of obviously investment content every day, so I don't always just look to read books about investments. But I did come across an article a long time ago that I do always go back to every once in a while. It was actually a speech given by a guy called Fernando del Pino, who was a board member of Ferrovial and the son of the founder at Ferrovial, who ended up also being an investor and did give a speech to I think it was a hedge fund audience. It was called The Five Experiments, and it was quite an interesting rundown of history and the main changes that society has lived through. Again, it's about societal change over time.
The first experiment is about democracy and how we think it's a God-given right to have democracies, but that hasn't always been the case. Or again, an experiment about how much debt we live with in the world, that it hasn't always been the case that we've had all this debt. It was a short speech, but very powerful, just to bring back again, the essence of the main changes that we've had in societies. Another topical book that I've recommended quite a bit more lighthearted in a way is Red Notice, which was about obviously the Russian involvement with Bill Browder.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. Browder. Yeah.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
That was, again, a very interesting book that it's always like word of mouth, has been recommended to me and then I've recommended to others. But I have very wide interests in reading. I recently finished a book called A Little History of Philosophy, which again, going back to the essence of philosophy, which I found it really, really interesting.
I had a book about physics that I finished recently, about the laws of gravity and how that affects space and continuum. I've read books about mitochondrias and biology. Again, it's just a little-
Vish Hindocha:
Wow. That's a very broad range.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Ageless was a recent book that I read about aging. Maybe I'm getting to that stage of life. I do find that if I'm going to read a book, it tends to be less about fixed income. Let's put that way. But it is about other things.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. No, but it's going to stretch you. It's going to stretch you in a dimension that you don't naturally tread down. That article sounds fascinating. I actually also just finished Red Notice about two months ago, just a fascinating read about how that came to be. And even just what I hadn't appreciated in that was maybe that set the precedent for how we think about sanctions, diplomatic sanctions.
Again, back to this idea of, we take for granted and think that this has already always existed in history, but what it brought to life for me is that, that had to be campaigned for and fought for, for a long period of time. And only very recently became a way that governments around the world can start to control for some of those things. Super, super interesting. Pilar, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Ah. Well, that's a good one. I always like to look at little kindness every day. I find little elements of kindness in every day, because I think that sometimes change happens in small doses rather in large ones. But having said that, actually one of the kindest things was during COVID actually, unfortunately my husband had to have surgery, which was a really difficult period in time. Obviously, during COVID, the markets were also not very easy.
I had a mother in one of my kids' class, would deliver food to me that she had cooked for us, because she knew that obviously I was going to be extremely busy. She took it upon herself to deliver food to my door basically, that she had cooked for a couple of days, just to make it a little bit easier. Again, you can imagine, I don't get to spend much time at my kids' schools, given how many I have, and that they all go to different schools. I thought that was really very kind and out of the way.
At MFS, actually one of the kindest things, again, unprompted was in one of my visits to Japan, where we were seeing some clients there, I was mentioning the fact that my boys love Pokemon. Again, a few weeks later, they sent me in the post some Pokemon cards in Japanese for them. I thought that was again, a very thoughtful gesture. Unnecessary and very kind. As I said, sometimes I just look for little things that just brighten my day. And I feel, again, there are gestures that are unnecessary, but really kind.
Vish Hindocha:
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. We're also drowning in Pokemon over here. We've got Pikachu, Bulbasaur and Charmander coming out of our ears. Pilar, just to finish, what one message do you think is really, really important to deliver to our listeners?
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
I think that you have to have grit and resilience, and again, keep in mind what the purpose and the goal is, and why you're doing what you're doing. I think it's really important to have passion in everything that you do. And I think a lot of the time that passion is really what gets translated to the performance, to your connections, to your relationships, and to your team motivation.
Have grit and have passion. It's difficult to get up every day and be involved in what we do and engaged. As I said, you have to have courage, and you can't really have the courage if you don't have the passion and the grit to get you there. So I would say that if you have those two, then you'll get anywhere you want.
Vish Hindocha:
That's great. Pilar, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Pilar Gomez-Bravo:
Vish, thank you. It's been such a pleasure.
Vish Hindocha:
That's the end of episode seven. I hope you took something away from that conversation. I certainly did. Thinking about adaptability and resiliency in investing and in markets, thinking about how having a holistic perspective gives you a shot at getting to an idea of two plus two equals five. And I'll definitely be thinking about hors d'oeuvres and stews for a little bit longer. But more than anything, I think Pilar's message on grit and how you deal with the dynamism that is being thrown at investors up and down the value chain today was really, really powerful.
Remember, you can subscribe to All Angles through Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you choose to get your podcast from. And if you do have any questions you'd like us to cover, we'd love to hear from you. Please get in touch by emailing us at allangles@mfs.com. Thanks for listening.
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