Title: Season 2 Episode 6 - Authentic DEI: Making it Personalized, Actionable and Transparent
Abstract: How can leaders effectively integrate DEI into their organizations? In Episode 6 of the All Angles podcast, MFS’ Chief Diversity Equity and Inclusion Officer Michelle Thompson-Dolberry shares her thoughts on meeting people where they are, building the process rather than checking the box and practical ways to apply DEI in the workplace.
Vish Hindocha:
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the All Angles podcast.
Speaker 2:
The views expressed are those of the speaker and are subject to change at any time. These views are for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as a recommendation to purchase any security or as an offer of securities or investment advice. No forecast can be guaranteed. Past performance is no guarantee of future results.
Vish Hindocha:
I am delighted today to bring my guest, Michelle Thompson-Dolberry, who is the chief diversity equity and inclusion officer at MFS. Michelle, welcome to the show.
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
Thank you for having me, Vish.
Vish Hindocha:
You're very welcome. Listeners might not know, but this is the third attempt that we've had to get you on the show, and events have always conspired against us. But I'm delighted that you're here today. So we're going to start, Michelle, with a bit of personal background on you. Could you give us a potted history of how you got to where you are today?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
Sure. So I'll start the long story in the short way. I was a French major in college, and so I start saying, you don't have to do anything specific to end up in this industry or to end up in a certain field. I didn't mean to be a French major, I just loved it so much, I just kept taking classes. And junior year when I decided I was going to declare a major, my advisor was like, "So you're a French major?" And I was like, "No, I'm not, because that's stupid." And he was like, "So you'd have to take 20 more classes to have any other major," so French major it was. But it's also how I got my first job in HR.
So I got my first job in HR working in, I was translating faxes from a home office at a French company. And that's how I got my first taste of HR, which I really decided that I loved. And so that's what launched my career into human resources. And so I say study what you want to study, you never know where you're going to end up. Following your heart really kind of drives where you end up. And then I've been in financial services working in HR mostly for my career, with a stint in marketing as well.
Vish Hindocha:
What was it about HR, that first interaction with HR, sort of translating documents for a French company, that lit you up and lit that spark in you that said that this is the career path that I want to take?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
I'd love for it to be like there was some really gut thing that I felt. Really, I was just nosy. And being in HR, you got to see everything that was happening in a company. You got to really understand the different people and how everything interacted. And I think seeing that bigger picture for me was always really important. And when I moved out of HR for the time that I spent in marketing, I just felt out of the loop. I felt like I didn't know everything that was going on as much as I did in HR. So for me, it gave me a really wide view of what the organization was up to and how all the pieces fit together, which really resonated with me.
Vish Hindocha:
That's amazing. Is there anything in how you made those moves or how you thought about or framed those moves? So you talked about following your passion and maybe where your skillset lay, as well as your nosiness and interest in intercompany gossip. But is there anything that, did somebody come and tap you on the shoulder? Did you have to put yourself forward for some of those roles? Is there anything in there that you reflect on and think, "Actually, that could have gone a very different way, had some scenario been slightly different"?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
For me, it was about taking chances and taking risks to do something different. Every place that I've gone to, every role that I've taken where I've grown the most has been a risk. There's been a risk involved with it and there has been either something completely new, like when I moved to marketing, I just thought, "Well, if I'm good with employees, I could be good with customers, right?" And really saw the synergies between those two functions and thought that I could really learn a lot from marketing and bring it back into HR. And then the different functions in HR that I've done were all around where was I needed most in the organization at a particular moment. And it wasn't necessarily about what I wanted to do, it was where could my skills add the most value? And I found that where I could have impact, energized me. Even if the topic wasn't necessarily the thing I wanted to do in that moment.
And so having an impact was more important to me than, oh, it was this job title or it was this job function. And then those were the places that I've actually grown the most because it wasn't the safe route and wasn't the thing that you knew you could do.
Vish Hindocha:
Amazing. I want to come back to impact and personal growth in a millisecond. But before we do that, is there anything that comes to front of mind for you in terms of the things that you learned from marketing or being with customers that you sort of translated back into the world of HR, or vice versa?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
I think all of it is really, really interchangeable. I found that marketing had more rigor in the discipline around how you interact and what you do with customers and clients. And so bringing that back into HR and thinking about the employee experience, the employee journey in a very similar way. And making sure that when you put that focus on that end user, it really changes how you operate. And so for me, that has been something across my career that I've been thinking of. What is the experience that someone is having either of our organization, our team or even of me personally? And how does that change what we do in order to enhance that?
Vish Hindocha:
That's incredible. Thank you. And coming back to impact, always curious, I've talked to people who were sort of top of their game and really focused on this in terms of contribution to something bigger than themselves, be that the organization or broader society. You've talked a little bit about growth, about taking risk, but if you were to frame now, sitting where you sit as chief diversity equity inclusion officer for a large financial services company, a large investment manager, what is your why? What kind of fires you up every morning? And you've transformed so much already in a relatively short space of time for MFS, and so I know that passion burns bright. But what is it that sort of gets you going and lights you up in the morning?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
I love to help others who need additional support and helping themselves to succeed. So whether that was supporting small businesses that were women and minorities who weren't necessarily getting their fair share of contracts or whatever it was. Whether that is supporting underrepresented campus talent and helping them to get into the organization and get a foot in where they might not necessarily have before. Or whether it is a colleague who has something that someone doesn't see and helping them to feel more like they belong. Helping someone else to succeed and leveraging whatever power and whatever kind of air quotes I have to do that has always been important. And I've always called it using my corporate powers for good. So whether that's in a community and being able to sponsor organizations, whatever that is, I want to be able to use my powers for good.
Vish Hindocha:
I like that. Having the agency to think about how we use our powers for good is excellent. So I do want to dip into DEI and how you... So maybe just taking a small step back, how you think about it. DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion is such an important conversation that is permeating many industries, and especially the financial services sector at this moment in time. It's front of mind for many of the clients that MFS serves, it's front of mind for many of the employees that are here. And of course, you're the chief and you're responsible for that. Just before we get into MFS, just could you just describe for us how you approach thinking about something as complex and dynamic and that moves so fast as DEI?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
So what I would say, and I say this a lot, is that DEI is not a spectator sport. Right? There is something for everyone, a way that everyone can lean in and do their part. And I can't have people sitting on the sidelines. So whatever that game is, that favorite game that you have, whether it's baseball or even cricket, which I still don't understand. I was watching the other day and the score was like 146/3 and I was like, "Can you come back from that kind of a deficit?" I'm not really sure. Whatever that sport is, how do we all get in? We're all in this game together. And so that's the way I see it, I see a role for everyone.
But also what I've realized is that it's very, very personal. It's personal for every single person in a different way. And so first you have to meet people where they are and you have to understand where they are by talking to them and understanding. And then making things actionable so that people know, "What do you want me to do?" Right? That's what I hear a lot, "What do you want me to do?" And so how do we help people to understand the role that they can play and how important it is? And then for me, really focusing on transparency and making sure that people know why we're doing what we do. That's how you get the buy-in for people to be on the journey. And so those are the ways that I really kind of think about DEI from a high-level perspective.
Vish Hindocha:
So participate, empathize, take action and have transparency around it. Has that been a philosophy that's been long in the . . . I mean, it makes intuitive sense to me, and I know you and I get to exchange views and ideas on these topics frequently, which is delightful. Is that a philosophy to you that has been sort of long in the making? Has that been tested? Or how did you form that approach in order to drive real and meaningful change through an organization and be able to scale it?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
My philosophy has actually evolved over time. And so I feel like I have this really clear sense of right and wrong and what's good and what's bad. And I realize that the world isn't really black and white like that, and so people have different views and different ways of thinking of it. And so really kind of meeting people where they are with whatever business case makes sense to them. It used to be like, "Here's the case," and, "Diverse teams make for better business results." Or the moral imperative, "We want to treat people the way that we want to be treated." And going one way or another, you might not get your message across to someone. And so how do you think about the message that's going to resonate and figuring that out?
And I think before, I would just kind of drum along to here's the message, here's the message, here's the message, why don't you get it? And now I realize different people are listening for different things. And so when you get to them with that thing that resonates, whether it's a personal story that I've told you about my life or whether it's some huge moral wrong that's happening in the world, when I get you, I got you, but I have to go and get you with that message. And so that making it really personalized is something that has really evolved for me in a way that I don't think I saw before. And I think I just was hoping that people would get it and hope's not a strategy, and now I realize you have to help people get it and then you have to help them see what they can do to be part of the solution. And so that's really helped me to even be just a little more actionable with the way I support others on their journey.
Vish Hindocha:
That's really powerful. And one of the things I often think about on this show is how your perspective or how our perspective I guess is different from the conventional wisdom, if there is any in this space. So what do you believe or what do you have as your perspective that is not necessarily wildly held by others, be that in our industry or more broadly? Is there anything that comes to mind for you? Anything that you think about that might feel counterintuitive for our listeners, but having sat with the problem and grappled with it for so long, is maybe slightly more visible for you?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
I think for me, where I am in this moment, is we don't all have to agree. We don't all have to agree all the time in order to move forward together. Right? So I think a big part of this is how do you come together as a team, as an organization, to say this is how we want to move forward together. And so I think that people find disagreement and friction as something to shy away from. And I think it's one of those things that actually helps you to get to more clarity. And so you got to squeak by in order to get through, but you can get through. And I think once you do that, people understand differently. And so I feel like it's being on the journey together and saying we don't always have to agree on it, we don't always have to have the same perspective.
And then also talking more about compassion versus comprehension. You might not be able to understand someone else's path. You might just not get it. And I understand that and that's okay, but I need you to have compassion for the life that someone else is living in their shoes and for the experience that they are having, that could be very, very different to yours. You might not understand it, but I need you to have compassion for it. And I think if we just let people be . . . I think right now a lot of it is forcing people to have a way of thinking and forcing them to agree with something. I don't need you to do that. And I think if we just let people just kind of sit with it for a little in their own way, it helps people to kind of move forward with a better understanding and a better way of thinking about it for themselves.
Vish Hindocha:
Compassion versus comprehension is, I think, an excellent way to frame it. A couple of things, and I always have sort of slightly random sparks of thought whenever we interrupt. But I think it's Jeff Bezos's philosophy of disagree and commit that he's sort of famous for of this idea that we don't all have to agree and it's not all about consensus building, but it is about bringing your ideas and ideally in a cognitively diverse organization. We all have different ideas and different ways of solving problems that we want to ultimately solve. And it's being able to do that and then trusting the wisdom of the team to be able to make a better decision than any one individual.
And to the point on people's . . . I think there's a brilliant book by Jonathan Haidt called The Righteous Mind, which sort of gets to your point on we don't all have to agree. And often our thinking and what we verbalize isn't even what we really truly believe, but can often get hijacked by our mind. So anyway, super interesting as you start thinking about how you can build more compassion for people that maybe have a different view or express a very different view to one that you might have. Where do you think the future of . . . So you talked about how your approach has evolved over time and things that you've augmented maybe to your original position. Do you have a sense of what the next frontier is of the conversation that we're all having around diversity, equity and inclusion?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
It can be pretty polarizing to talk about DEI right now. It's one of those lightning rods like ESG, where you go, you either love to talk about or you totally hate to talk about it. And I think as we look more to integrating DEI into the things that we do and into the fabric and the DNA of an organization, we won't have to talk about it specifically like this bolt-on thing. Right? It's not going to be, so I'm older than you Vish, so I remember when cars didn't always have air conditioning in them, and if you wanted that, it was an add-on and you needed to add more money to it and we didn't have that kind of money, hence no air conditioning in the car. Nowadays, you don't have to say, "I want air conditioning in a car." It just is. Right? It just exists. And so how do we make sure that DEI is one of those things that isn't something that you need to add on and pay more money for, it's just one of the baseline things that you have in the car. Right?
And so I think that's where, if we start to really get this right, we embed it throughout our employee journey. We embed it throughout our client and our customer journey. We embed it in the marketing. We embed it in the way we think about products and services. And so it doesn't have to be something separate, it just is. And that's kind of nirvana, and that's when I work myself out of a job and I'm not worried about that anytime soon. But I think that's where, in a perfect world, that's where we should try to direct the conversations.
Vish Hindocha:
The perfect segue to thinking about how you're approaching this and for MFS, or how MFS are approaching it. And what is getting built into the car and the vehicle that we're continuously building on those different journeys. Before I go there actually, do you mind, could we just touch on a couple of areas of either confusion for me, where I sort of chase my tail a little bit on the conversation on DEI, and maybe more front of mind for clients too.
We've talked about this a little bit, unconscious bias training or entrenched assumptions that people have. Often a lightning rod topic and is an effective, scalable way just to begin sort of training. My personal view is that's the first step, and actually the actions and the processes and the change that you make to the employee journey is really the holy grail that we're all seeking. Is that fair to you?
I'm a big fan of meditation, as you know, and I just think the idea of helping everyone uncover and unearth and rewire their unconscious bias could take 30 years in a Tibetan cave, which most people probably don't have the luxury of doing. And so we need to be aware of unconscious bias or our entrenched assumptions, but actually the next step is probably more important in my view, maybe controversially that putting in place processes and systems that allow us to address those and make sure that we're providing equal opportunity to get to the outcomes that we need to on behalf of our client or all our stakeholders is the most important thing. And so I know we're sort of collectively on that journey. Anything that you would react to there or that you violently disagree with?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
No, I would tend to agree. And I say when you build a better process, I feel better about our result, regardless of what the result is. Right? When you have a strong rigorous process that you go through, I feel great that you've done all the things that we need to do. And there's a difference between a process and kind of checking the box, but in a way it is that. Right? It's almost like we need to save each other from ourselves. Right? You know that you've got unconscious bias, so maybe one of the things that we do is we mask resumés so that you're not just looking at a name or looking at a school. I've got to save you from yourself, because we know that you'll be drawn to certain things. If we know these things, build a better process to mitigate against that. Right? That's where I think the beauty is.
And so many people say, "We don't want this to be a check the box thing." But guess what? When you're starting off on something, when you don't know exactly where you're headed, you make a list. When you're going on a journey for the first time and you don't know, you don't have to go, "I'm just going to drive and just wing it." Right? You go, "No, the GPS has a thing and it's going to tell me you do this first and then you do this and then you do this." And you're checking that off. And you need to do that for me, maybe the first five times you need to go to a place, for others maybe just the one. And then you know how to navigate it. We don't know how to navigate this yet. We need to check a box because we don't know where the heck we're going. Right? And I don't think it's a bad thing to say, before it becomes a habit, "I need you to do it and I need you to . . ." Be intentional about it and check the box because it's not a habit yet.
And so I think building a better process will then yield to the best result. Might not always be the result that I want or the result that you want, but that's actually not the point. The point is that we can feel good about the result because we feel great about the process. And so I think that's exactly where we are. That's the type of thing that we focus on at MFS when we think about even our hiring process. Right? I'm not trying to influence what happens at the bottom, I'm trying to influence what happens all the way through, and then we see what we get at the bottom. Right? We see what happens at the end of that funnel. But if we do our job right, we should end up with stronger results that everyone feels good about.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah, that's great. That's really helpful. And on the results . . . So I like the process versus outcome, and good and bad and just what we can control and what is within our power or what is in our gift is how do we build a better process and then be judged ultimately by the results, use the results to refine the process. When it comes to results, one of the things that I personally struggle with, and I would just love your perspective is . . . I'm going to frame it under the question of virtue signaling. This is a question that . . . So I was socializing the fact that you and I were sitting down having this conversation and I was asking the questions, and one of our colleagues said, "I'd like to ask a question about virtue signaling and how do you protect against it?" I might add my own spin to that.
I've grappled with this for a while. We seem to have no problem with vice signaling, and so I wonder why we have such a big problem with virtue signaling. But actually, at what point is it important for people to signal the good outcomes that they're able to create or generate, because that's as helpful to everyone else as a role model, but also that is just an outcome that they have generated. Or in your mind, when does that become people over-claiming to things that actually have no real impact or meaning? And how do you draw the line between that? Is there a way to really navigate that space?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
I think it's a really interesting question, and I think it's one that in particular at MFS, we struggle with. We never want to seem like we're beating our chest. Right? But every now and then, being a little braggadocious isn't the worst thing ever. Right? So you have to actually share success, that's what I would call it. Right? You want to make sure that you're sharing when something has gone well, number one, because everyone loves a little celebration. Hey, you have to celebrate the small wins that happen along the way, and then you can share with others how you did it. Again, back to the process, here's what I did to make this happen. I'm not just saying yay for me because I did it, I'm going to share with you how I did it. So sharing with others also helps them to see how they can do something differently. Right?
So I feel like that storytelling is actually really important. Because if you're just sitting there being successful in the corner and you see everyone else not being successful, how can we help each other? How can we learn from each other? And so I think that's really important. One of the things that I really enjoy is being in different industry forums where folks really are sharing what's working for them in doing this work. And no one's saying it like, "Hey, look at me. I'm so great." It's, "Hey, we did this and this worked. This worked." And being excited about the thing that worked, because there's so many things that don't. Right? There are a lot of things that we don't get right in this work, where it doesn't resonate and it doesn't land the way that you want it. And so when something does, it's worth celebrating and it's worth sharing with others so that we can all get the shortcut version of how can we do this work better together.
Vish Hindocha:
Brilliant. So now, without bragging, but how are you doing what you're doing? What is the sort of nugget of how MFS is approaching this? And if you don't mind, talking about in your mind eyes, what has worked or is working. And again, all of this feels like it's work in progress all the time. And what do you think we've learned from and are sort of moving away from, or maybe what didn't work quite so well as we had hoped and therefore as a kind of learning opportunity for us and the organization?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
I think the key thing for us at MFS, and certainly for any organization, is to be really authentic and genuine with the work that you're doing. And so when you start with the data and it tells you where to go and you can see it, then you have to decide who do we want to be in this work? Where do we want to be in this work? And then set kind of that intentionality from there. Right? We're never going to be that bleeding edge, pushing the envelope on things, that's just not who we are. But who we are is an organization with an awesome culture that people are really proud of and want to be part of, and they want others to love it as well. And so how do we build on that?
So that's been one of the things for me that has been a great anchor, because not every organization feels that way about their culture. You don't have people just walking around talking about culture all day. And we do. And so how do we build on that? And I think that's been one of the real ways to continue to lean into this work is to say, I just want everyone to love this culture as much as person X does. And so that means we might need to do things a little bit differently, because that person might be experiencing life differently. They might have a different lived experience than you. And so how can we make sure that that person is pulled into this culture and feels great about it as well? Right?
So, for us, we've been focusing on accountability a lot, and that's starting with transparency, understanding the data. If people don't know what it is and why you're trying to change it, they're not going to be along for the ride. So how do you share that information? And we've been really great about that. We've been really good about transparency and sharing information. We've put it in our DEI report. And not every organization is willing to do that. And I think for us, it says a lot about this is the starting point. We're not great and we're working on it, but here's where we are. And more importantly, here's where we're going. Right? Here is how we're going to continue to celebrate all of our differences in order to move forward and support our clients in the best way possible.
And so I think we've started to do that more and we've driven more accountability through the organization. We have a DEI goal that everyone has to fulfill. And so everyone finds their way in this work. And I think that's what's most important, when you talk about the culture and how personal it is, I need everyone at MFS to find their way on this journey, whatever that looks like.
Some people it's going to mean they're sprinting along with me, and I only sprint from a DEI perspective, by the way. So they're going to be sprinting along with me, and some people are going to be like, "I'm still lacing up. I'm still here, but I'm getting in it, I promise." And then some people are going to sit on the sidelines and go, "I'm not in it." Right? And so it's a matter of knowing where people are, having respect for that, and then saying, the ones who are lacing up, I got to go back and get them. I don't want to leave people who want to be on the journey because some of us can move faster. Right? We have to be able to move at a similar pace to make sure that people stay with us, but also to make sure we move forward.
Vish Hindocha:
That's really powerful. I wonder if you have any learning so far. As teams around the firm have started to apply things, do you have things that sort of float to the top of mind for you of these things are working. And listeners will know, that there are so many parallels here in my mind to sustainability, because I'm global head of sustainability strategy, you're having to contend with many of the same issues. Right? We're dealing with people that operate on a spectrum, of different levels of belief and conviction, but want to participate, want to be a part of the conversation. And how you make that accessible and inclusive to those people is only going to make us stronger as an entity.
And within my own team, we've definitely been experimenting with different ways of embracing the diversity that we have within our team, which has been really, really powerful. And so I'm happy to share that. But is there anything, Michelle, that for you, just obviously given that you get to see the whole enterprise, that you think has been even one or two practical things that listeners that may be in a leadership position, may be able to start implementing as early as next Monday when they're back in the office?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
So there are a couple of things that I think folks are doing really well and it's really making a difference. One thing is put DEI on your team agenda. Put it on an agenda. Assign rotating responsibility for what that looks like, and have it be, "Hey, just come and talk about something that's of interest to you." It doesn't mean that someone needs to be taking a position on it, but it means that someone might go do a little research on it, they might think about something. It could be something personal, it could be something they don't understand. They can bring it to the team and they can talk about it. And then everyone can learn together in this environment where if I've assigned it to you and we're at work, you're going to do it. Right? Sometimes hokey is the only way to get it done, so, "This is your term to talk about next DEI week." Do that as part of your team agenda.
Have different conversations with your colleagues, whether those are other fellow leaders and managers, or gathering employees to talk about different topics. And by the way, there are so many topics that you can talk about. It doesn't always need to be race and gender and sexual orientation or identity. That's part of it, but that's not all of it. Right? We've got multiple generations in our workforce, let's talk about that. Because the fact that I couldn't figure out the little voice memo button on my phone is probably a lot more compelling than the fact that I'm a black woman sometimes. So how do we bring people together by having interesting conversations?
One of the things that we've done from a European perspective is have conversations on the topic of time. How cool is that? What does time look like to you? What that means in Italy is very different than what that means in the UK. How do you have different conversations that bring forth interesting information without it being judgmental? It just is. There's nothing to judge, it just is. But when you learn something new, it helps you to interact with someone differently. Right? And so how do we have more conversations like that in an organic way? And so it might just be getting some people together and saying, "We're going to talk about something." Or putting it on your team agenda and saying, "You know what, who's going to talk about this topic today?" So talking about things is a really easy way to get these conversations started.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And my humble and limited experience so far with it, I think . . . And so, for other team leaders, I have a team of approximately 25 individuals that span four or five different countries and a couple of continents. And so sometimes getting everyone together can be challenging. We used to have it as a standing agenda item, but candidly always felt like it was the last 15 minutes and it got squeezed as other things . . . And so I've learned a couple of things throughout my working career, is that nothing brings people together like free food. So we started doing lunch and learn sessions specific to DEI. And what I asked is . . . I nominated two individuals to speak for 10 minutes, it's not super long, about anything in their life and their shared history. And we created this sort of safe space, Brene Brown would call it a brave space between the team, with an area of confidentiality, so without breaking any of those confidences.
People shared, to your point, it wasn't necessarily about their gender or their sexual orientation, but experiences that they may have had in the army or experiences growing up in different countries, or losing a parent at a very young age and the impact that had on them, or having a dependent be that a child or a partner that might have some invisible disability that can be quite challenging to manage. And a few things happened in really, really short order. The level of trust and bonding in the team that bled into every other discussion we had was incredible. But also, people found that actually they had so much in common with the people that they'd been sitting next to, in some cases for about 15 years, with no idea that they had those areas in common. And all it took was a 10-minute conversation, followed by 20 minutes of open team discussion over some food, and then somebody else gets to go.
Someone else in the team had an excellent idea for what they call DEI karaoke, where everyone . . . Just like the rules of karaoke, so you go up for three minutes, you say your piece, everyone applauds loudly, and then the next person goes up and does their thing. And again, we've experimented with both. Both are super effective, been really, really good at building that sort of team bond. And as an investment solutions team and a sustainability strategy team, so teams that are dealing with how to solve hard problems in a great way for our client, actually, it's really helped and meshed people and understand where people are coming from and build those bonds that actually help us ultimately, to your point earlier, serve our clients much, much better. So anyway, just for what it's worth, I share those things. And for anyone listening, if you have great examples, we would love to hear from it. So please email us at the show, that'd be great.
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
Vish, I love what you said, that it started to really build the trust in the team, of sharing these experiences. And something came to mind just as you were speaking, if it's a bridge too far for you to go, "Okay, we're putting DEI on the next team agenda," learn about each other. Learn about each other and how different you are. What's your learning style? What's the way that you like to work? Right? We take those things for granted when we go, oh, someone's introverted and someone's extroverted. Means a lot in the workplace though. Right? And the way that we interact with each other.
If you're not all just leaning in and ready to answer and ready to participate at any moment like I am, and you're someone who needs to process a little bit more, you experience meetings in a very different way. Right? So even just talking about what's the style that you like to work in. Right? Things like that. Learning about each other, those are our differences. It's not always that deep. It can be that simple. And the trust that we build with each other by learning about each other and wanting to work together better is absolutely incredible.
Vish Hindocha:
Absolutely. And it takes work. I'll be the first to say, I and we are far from perfect on this in terms of our team. But as a leader, it also helps me understand how I get the best out of the individual. So to your point, we actually did a diversity exercise where we talked about people who are more morning people or night owls, or people who prefer to think on the spot and are more oral thinkers, in terms of they like to talk about things and bounce things around the room, versus people who prefer to sit with the problem, go away, meditate on it and come back with a more kind of informed response and feel pressure in the moment to do that.
And just having, even subtly, where you can control that environment, being able to do that has made a huge difference, frankly, to how those people feel about their contribution, but also the quality of the contribution that they make, and therefore the quality of the output that the team has overall, which is great. It does take work, and it's kind of a muscle that we're continuously trying to build, I think. And like you said, it's dealing with that subjectivity. This is the first point that you made, that everyone is experiencing this slightly differently and it is quite personal, makes it hard, makes it really hard to scale that learning across every person or every team, which can be a challenge if that's what you want to do.
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
But you're seeing it pay off, though. You're putting in the work and you're seeing that payoff. You're seeing people be more engaged. You're seeing them contribute in a way that is authentic to them, which you may not have known had you not learned more about them. Right? So putting in the work does yield better results.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
Awesome.
Vish Hindocha:
Okay, Michelle, before I get to the secret question, is there anything that you think is . . . In one line, what is the most important or critical thing that listeners should be focused on right now?
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
The role that they can play as an individual. Whatever seat you are in, you are a leader from that seat. What can you do in the next moment to help someone to feel more like they are included, to help them feel like they belong, to help them feel better about being a teammate or a colleague or an employee in the same organization with you? Everyone has that power. Even if it is on those core days when you're in the office and you see someone that you don't ordinarily see, you'd stop and you chat with them, "Hey, how's it going? I haven't seen you in a while." All of a sudden that person's be like, "Wow, someone saw me today. I came in for a purpose."
You know how there's days where you're like, "Why am I in?" If someone would be like, "Wow, I had an interaction with someone that was different and that was really cool." Every single person can make a difference to someone every single day, whether that's at work, whether that's on the subway, whether that's on the tube, whether that's in traffic, when you're having a bad attitude. Always, you can help someone else. And so if you think from a place of acting with kindness first, it's going to matter to someone. And if we all did random acts of kindness all day, I hate to say but it's this easy, just being a better human on the planet, but it kind of is that easy. If everyone did that every day, you would make a difference for someone and that person would feel better. And that's what it's all about.
Vish Hindocha:
That's great. It's not often in the workplace, certainly in the financial services world, that we get to have a conversation where multiple times we'll reference a word like kindness, compassion, empathy and even impact. So Michelle, thank you so much for coming and sharing those thoughts and your wisdom with us today. As is the tradition on the show, the prior guest has left a secret question for you, so I'm going to reveal that now. You'll get a chance to retaliate and ask a secret question to the next guest. So think about that while I open this up and read it.
Okay. So the question is, "Will AI be constructive or destructive in terms of affecting jobs, employment and culture in the long run?" That's a perfect question for you, Michelle. So how do you think about the impact that AI is likely to have on the employee journey? So employment as well as culture of organizations.
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
So constructive or destructive, and I think the answer is yes. This is one of those things that we have got to get really intentional about. You can't just willy-nilly wield it around. Right? And thinking about what we're doing, why we're doing it and the results that we're getting from it I think are going to be really, really important. In some instances it's great. If I think about AI particularly from a hiring perspective and how it could elevate people's profiles that might be a better selection for a job, absolutely, that's great. "Ooh, is there going to be bias in that also? Who built that algorithm? Ooh." You need to think about these things. Right? So thinking about how we're going to leverage it is, I think, the most important thing. It's not something that you can just let happen to you.
And I feel like for a while people have just been like, "Yeah, no, no, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. There's nothing to see here." And then all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, there's a lot to see here." And so I think making sure that you have a thoughtful approach to it and that you are not sticking your head in the sand and just kind of waiting to see what happens. Because there are really great benefits that I think that can help to propel us forward and really help to shape our organizations in the way that we think and the way that we do business. But there are some sticky things that if you are not paying attention... It's like when you have a child and you're like, "No, no, it's really quiet in there." And you're like, "Yeah, that can't be a good thing." And they're like drawing all over the wall with the marker and you're like, "Shoot." Until you're like, "Ah, that's why I bought invisible markers, because I can just wipe this off." If we don't pay attention, it can really go awry.
And so I think there is a lot for us to learn and lean into, and I just need people to actively do that. And I think that it becomes one of those things. Maybe there are going to be some jobs that go away, but going to be some jobs that are really new and fun. There are going to be ways that we think about using and leveraging employees in ways that we never did before. If that job goes away, what else are you good at? What other skills do you have? So opening our minds to seeing what's possible, I'm really, really excited about. It just takes intentionality to kind of, again, the process. Right? Build the process and build the infrastructure to support that. That's a great question.
Vish Hindocha:
Yeah, it is a good question. I couldn't agree more. I think we've been doing a lot of work, obviously, at the firm, and as many other people, I'm sure, listening around sort of AI and what its application might be. To underscore something that you've sort of said explicitly and referenced a few times, the mindset shift required to understand what is happening as the world has its next digital transformation is incredibly important. There is, I'm going to again reference a book called The Digital Mindset, which was written by two professors. Which sort of, if I was to summarize it in one sentence, would be to really think about the mindset, the toolset and the skillset that you want to invoke and develop. And to your point, be intentional around developing as an organization.
And just that framing of that Venn diagram with those sort of three spheres has been super helpful. Because I think, for me personally, it's really easy to default to what are the skillsets that I need in my team? Well, okay, everyone needs to learn Python or everyone needs to learn SQL, or everyone needs to learn how to code some language. But actually, that's probably a really basic or entry level way of thinking about it. To have the mindset as well as the toolset and the skillset combined together, that is really going to be required to rethink. And as you say, it could be really liberating for many, many people to express their creativity and their insight in a very different way, and maybe in a more powerful way is great. So you're right, I think it is something that we have to intentionally lean into and just be open-eyed about, both the constructive and destructive parts. But yeah, it's been super interesting just being early stage on that journey.
Michelle, thank you so much for your time, we really appreciate it. And for your insights.
Michelle Thompson-Dolberry:
Thanks, Vish.
Vish Hindocha:
There's lots to take away from this conversation, I hope. And again, for all the people listening, if you have any questions or comments or follow-ups, please feel free to reach out to us at allangles@mfs.com. Thank you, Michelle.
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